Developing Your Own Style

Sean C's picture

I felt like writing this blog after changing the art style to my comic, and realizing what a liberating experience it can be. I had been drawing Cute Ninja Girls in a more manga-esque style since it's launch, but faced a bit of an ethical crisis. I'm no fan of manga, and view it as derivative and hack, (this is mostly on the web, but it's not universal by any means) yet here I was drawing my own comic in this style.

I know the kind of art I like to draw, and I know that my personal style would be both easier to handle and would help make the comic itself more original than it already was. I had been using the manga style because the comic originally called for it, and would be an important part of establishing the "cute" factor of Cute Ninja Girls. I couldn't take it anymore.

One day, I said to hell with it, and went for it. It was the best move I could have made.  Now, I'm afraid, I'm going to rant for a bit. I'm not trying to be harsh, or single anyone out; I'm just speaking from experince.

Alright, folks. I've been reading webcomics for years, and drawing/writing one for roughly half a year now. I've experienced the occasionally intense pressure of crafting a unique art style that I can call my own. Of course doing something like this involves studying other artists, and discovering little tricks they use that may work for your own style. Every artist has been influenced by other artists, so don't deny it. Even when I worked in my manga-esque style, I tried to make it different than the general crop out there.

However, I'm seeing a trend developing that disturbs me - there's a definite pattern of new artists seeking to directly copy the style of another webcomic artist. These individuals, God bless 'em, have the idea that by closely copying another artist, they can have a successful comic. They occasionally will simply try to copy an image from another artist's comic panels. I've seen cases where developing artists actually ask (ususally in forums) how to copy an artist, or ask how to draw like artist X. It saddens me that they don't aim for a more unique and personal style. It's a wonderful experience to do so.There are some areas that get hit hard by this particular type of art parasite.

Manga - It's everywhere - both in print and online. If the story to Manga X isn't as cliched as possible, then the art is exceptionally derivative of another artist. I'm not accusing manga artists in general - there's plenty of truly original people in this genre, but there are those that push things too far, in my book. These are the self-indulgent fan-fics that copy the art as closely as they can for an "authentic" feel. There are those who just draw manga characters because they think they could get more traffic. (I can be accused of this - but I defend myself by stating that when the comic originally launched, it was meant to have a manga flavor - the style was not just some trick to get readers - and I abandoned the manga-esque style, admiting I couldn't stand it anymore.) There are the artists who believe that manga is a good area to learn how to draw, and try to do so without studying important details like anatomy. Their characters tend to be highly disproportional, have narrow heads, and lean to one side. They're cutting corners, and it shows.

Furry - I know furry fans are some of the most passionate and rabid fans, but I gotta say it: pretty much all furry comics look alike. There's a general style used across the vast majority of the board; simply read a few and you'll see what I mean. The "talented" furry artists tend to have some sort of canine character that looks like every other canine character. There are details that are prevailent - the general shape of the head, the brow, and the placement of the ears. Don't get me started on the whole cat-girl thing, either. I don't even know if it belongs in this genre, but the world has seen every possible cat-girl it could ever see. We don't want anymore images of a sexy girl with cat ears coming out of the top of her head.

Sprites - There are pixel artists who make their own sprites, and I give credit to them. However, the majority of sprite comics are taken from old videogames, and the lack of effort shows, mostly through the poor jokes, "anytime I feel like it" updates, and piss-poor panel arrangement. Sprite comics tend to be for people who just want to say, "I have a webcomic." If you want that as a status symbol, put a little more effort into it. Some have found success, like 8-Bit Theater, but that comic stands on good writing, and the panels are carefully planned.

For any artists out there who are considering starting up a webcomic, I can only offer the following advice. Don't copy another artist's style. Ever. It's okay to borrow elements to enhance your own style; that's how you develop it. Ripping off another artist WILL draw harsh comparisons, and will be viewed as derivative and possibly hack-work. Before you even start the first strip, make up character sheets that show your character from various angles. See what you can do to make yourself more comfortable drawing said characters. Don't claim that copying another artist directly helps you learn to draw, because it doesn't. All it teaches you is how another artist draws. You won't walk away with a better sense of the figure, and the overall quality of your work will suffer. If you can't handle the basics like figure drawing, then you may want to consider learning a bit more before making the commitment to a comic. Waiting just a little longer can be a boon. If you do just jump in, you'll find that your art improves over time, especially if you make the effort to make it better. Either approach is valid.

I'm not trying to be elitist, or to discourage future webcomic makers; I'm just trying to give out advice. Developing your own, original art style will help define your individualty and, who knows, maybe you'll strike gold and create the new "hip" style that will trigger a wave of copy-cats. Your chances of success through ripping off another artist aren't good. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but in the comics world, it's generally frowned upon. If I came off harsh or offended anyone, then I apologize. I only want to encourage budding artists to define themselves, and create something they can truly call their own.

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Kiba's picture

Doesn't 90% of all comics

Doesn't 90% of all comics sucks?
This include manga, webcomics, superhero book, and whatnot.
Copying someone's style and stuff like that been around a long time.

Really, this thing has been around FOREVER. No matter what you say to them, they don't care/listen/whatnot.

Aleph's picture

Style, substance, and shiny eyes

Manga-- as a broad sweeping generalization, not as a 100 percent rule-- often develops an instant, irrational following regardless of content because of a sense of familiarity. This is how something like Return The Favor! can become a phenomenon with 7 pages and no plotline, etc etc etc ad infinitum. If you look at cross-listed sites like Onlinecomics.net you can see that manga fans tend to glom on to hundreds of manga bridging all kinds of genre and styles, pretty much attaching to anything with shiny eyes. On its surface, manga promise formula, characters whose roles and primary traits can often be identified on first glance based on model style, eye style, and costume. Manga revolves around several sets of feel-good concepts, whether it's the hamsters with sparkly twinkles feel good or the sexy robots feel good or the 'we'll be friends forever!' feel good, etc-- and you can usually identify which thing is being promised from the thumbnail that links into the site. It's very accessible, so it's not a surprise that people end up copying what they see and producing a torrent of indistinguishable comics. The closer a new artist gets to what's hot in manga, the more people will attach to the newest thing that looks like what they already can't get enough of. I agree, though, about the atrocious things it ends up doing to a person's sense of character and art. The 'how to draw' things don't help, teaching people to make little stiffly-jointed dolls and not how anything articulates or why things show weight or don't.

Furry, you're appealing to certain appetites and the people who are looking for their furry comics want specific things. They're not going to accept furries that don't look like what they expect, generally-- it's been a long time since anybody's mentioned a real development in the furry models used for furry art. Most of the furry art I hear mentioned is NSFW, and yeah, I'd like to hear less. But there are also therianthropes and people who grew up on anthropomorphic Disney dreams and they tend to revolve around things that are idealized, pleasing, and easily recognizable as the specific kinds of fantasies they entertain, so I doubt furry will change much until someone comes out with something that better tickles that predilection.

As for the rest, though, I think more and more people are trying to find their own ways... and occasionally something really good comes out of a style that at first seems derivative. Applegeeks has really gone a lot further, for instance, than anyone gave it credit for-- Hawk has his own voice. Like you, I think people often start with something familiar, especially if it gives them a better chance at starting out with a more welcoming reception, and then branch out from there. It's not actually a bad idea. Speaking from experience, when you hit people with a style that is wholly unfamiliar to their tastes, it can take a while to overcome their natural rejection of the unfamiliar. If people can't say, this looks like 'x' which is already popular, they often try to push the artist towards a familiar direction.

There really was a time when people pressured me to try drawing Malakhim in a /penny arcade/ style. I wanted to skin those people alive. It can be rough and aggravating to start out without the bonus of familiarity-- there will be a lot of sheeple who think if you aren't already popular the solution is to be like somebody who is, and will do their well-meaning best to wear you down until you change. I'd cut beginning artists slack if they weren't up to that challenge. As long as they develop their own voice as they go along, I won't necessarily put them down for starting with something that gets the proverbial foot in the door.

Some of the most successful artists in comics started out with other peoples' characters after all. Drawing them in their notebooks, I mean, not stealing-- and sometimes, continuing their storylines for one of the big publishers. This is a business that owes much of its progress to copycats.

NeilCohn's picture

Individualism versus copying

I think this is one of the most interesting topics of "comic theory" research for me – the debate between communal styles and individualism. If anyone is interested in a deconstructive viewpoint of these trends, I wrote a piece for comixpedia about this two years ago...

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Ghastly's picture

"Manga" isn't a style

"Manga" isn't a style anymore than "comics" is a style.

GregC's picture

Ghastly beat me to it again.

Ghastly beat me to it again. Manga isn't about the art it's about the storytelling. The reason why most attempts at comics that use what's become known in the US as the anime/manga art style is because they don't get it. They're basically making fan art. Like Aleph said, something for the group mind to "glomp". Like Kiba said, 90% of everything is crap and since there's a lot of stuff drawn in that style it looks like there is a huge amount of bad manga. When really, it's not manga. It's just bad comics drawn to look like most anime.

I said I wasn't taking the bait this time, but I did anyway. I'm really tired of defending manga. Actually I don't give a rat's ass about manga itself, I'm defending my manga-style comic from being lumped in with the rest. But I just realized I don't need to worry. It stands on it's own. And calling my comic "manga" under the popular US definition is about as accurate as calling it a "vampire" comic.

So "half a year" of attempting to work in a manga-style taught you this, huh? Maybe manga is actually a lot harder and way more complicated than you think. And that's why so many people do it so badly.

Greg Carter
Abandon
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rezo's picture

I think people are too

I think people are too concerned about finding an individual style. The most common reason a style is seen as unique is because the person looking at it is ignorant of what it is similar to, or they overlook the similarities because they like it, and saying it's not particularly unique is seen as a bad thing. And then they'll see a thumbnail of a face from another strip and write it off as hackery. Or they compare themselves to very dissimilar works - so a comic stands out because it is "not a manga or gamer comic", but it's probably something else quite similar to a lot of other "not manga/gamer" comics. There are seven fairly obviously manga/anime influenced comics in the buzzcomix top ten. None of them look like they're using the same style. None of them look like something you'd expect the average webcomic reader to be unfamiliar with visually. That is the way it is for most comics out there. None of the art from people who have responded to this post stand out in any big way, myself included. It's the same with a lot of comics influenced by strips. With their squat deformed characters and common expressions.At the same time, it wouldn't be said that Family Guy, The Simpsons, Futurama, Flinstones and The Critic all had the same style, although as far as indicating a general approach they aren't much different than the degrees of difference between many manga. in general An artist's individuality tends to show itself in their slight personal deviations from common approaches. This is why someone can say that Hawk's anime influenced deformed characters constitute a unique voice. And I think it's silly the way people who are in no way exceptional can slam their peers so blithely for being normal.

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andrael's picture

Re: I think people are too

rezo wrote:
The most common reason a style is seen as unique is because the person looking at it is ignorant of what it is similar to, or they overlook the similarities because they like it,

Right. Or else it's similar to something that's copied far less often than something else that's copied a lot, and is thus seen as "less derivative".
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monkeyangst's picture

Copying another artist's

Copying another artist's style is certainly not a situation you want to find yourself in after several years, but it is how most artists start out. Name any comics artist - odds are good they started out copying someone else. There's nothing at all shameful about it. It's a good way to get the basics of draftsmanship down. your own style will come later, or it should.

Oh, and to those who claim that manga isn't a style. This may be the case... it may be many, many different styles. Many, many different styles that all look the damn same. :)

andrael's picture

Oh, and to those who claim

Oh, and to those who claim that manga isn't a style. This may be the case... it may be many, many different styles. Many, many different styles that all look the damn same. :)

Before I started reading superhero comics, I thought that Jim Lee, John Romita Jr., Chris Bachalo and Andy Kubert's art all looked "the damn same". Just because certain people can't seem to distinguish between Arina Tanemura and Katsuhiro Otomo doesn't mean they are indistinguishable.

In my mind, there is a difference between "coming from an identifiable artistic background" and "all looking the damn same". I mean, Disney cartoons are recognizable as Disney cartoons, but you couldn't tell me that the art in Lilo and Stitch looks the same as the art in Sleeping Beauty.
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andrael's picture

Deliberately trying to draw

Deliberately trying to draw a certain way because it's different from what's popular is, to my mind, not ideologically different from deliberately drawing a certain way because it's similar to what's popular.

I dunno, I just think that individual style is something that's likely to come from gradual evolution and artistic development rather than sitting down and going, "I must develop a unique style!! I must I must I must!!!" Of course, making effort to learn basic stuff like anatomy, perspective, etc. etc. can never hurt either.
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No Rest For The Wicked

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Aleph's picture

Anti-conformity is conformity too

Certainly I agree, and from personal experience, trying to torture your own style into something else-- no matter what the aim-- is going to turn into bad art. When I started I was trying to 'toon up' what was really a painting based style more than what I thought of as a comic style, and it just ended up awful. The moment I gave myself permission to just relax and not try to exagerrate things/distort them everything smoothed out significantly.

Trying to just 'be different', whether it's trying to be different from what you see or different from what you really are and think people won't welcome, is a distortion that doesn't really benefit anyone, I think it's a better goal for people to start with what's comfortable and just keep pushing and pushing at what appeals to them until they find things that make them happy as artists.

Besides, when you puff yourself up thinking you're all revolutionary and different, you still risk finding out you're far from first to the table. It's a vast wide world out there, and it's hard rebel so very well that you guarantee nobody will be doing the same thing you are, and doing it better. Irony is fun.

Most people learn to draw by reproducing, and for some reason people think it's a higher goal to try to reproduce life than to reproduce another's interpretation of life. Art is a symbolic language, though, not an entirely representational one-- so learning from how another person interprets it is to me a higher goal, not a lesser one. The difference between learning from another artist and aping the artist tends to go to whether or not the person learning bothers to try to figure out /why/ the art looks the way it does, as opposed to being satisfied with copying it reasonably well. It sucks that a lot of people stop with copying and don't ever put themselves into the work, but telling people, never copy ever, I think that's actually counterproductive to their developing their own voice because it tells them to shut up until they already have it. I think a better rule that got lost here is just, never rip off another artist, don't take their work and just modify it for your own goals. Mimicry is a much higher form of flattery than flat-out use of someone else's images.

The best way to go, really, is just to start doing what pleases your eye, and then keep trying to make it better and better to you. I'll take something that's only a few degrees off something else before I'll take the pretentious, tedious, and BORING that comes of making an identity out of rejecting all things that came before, and we've all seen projects like that. I think the proposed position falls somewhere in between but it makes a lot of assumptions and generalizations that lay inappropriate blame and dilute the message.

This isn't nearly confined to manga and furry, nor sprite, I think these are just three categories of comic art that irritate the original poster. Wannabes abound in just about every category, from PA clones to pages that could have been ripped directly out of Marvel and run through a colour filter, practically. 'comic book' may not be a style, nor 'manga' nor 'webcomic', but, there are prevalent ideas that people have come to expect under those labels and I think that's where the bias has gone here.

You said it a lot better, Andrael, that's just my wordy wordy agreement ^^; Thumbs-up :)

Sean C's picture

Good points, Andrael. As I

Good points, Andrael. As I mentioned before, artists can borrow certain elements from another artist's style (like the way Artist X draws eyes, or a thicker outline to figures, etc...)

Developing your own, unique style is time-consuming, but shouldn't that be the goal for any artist - to develop and better yourself, rather than seek out a cheap, quick and easy way? Doesn't the real artist take pride in their gift, and try to cultivate it? A lot of artists do copy early on, but tend to realize that directly copying another artist isn't working for them, and they move to learning basic anatomy, and look for a drawing style they are more comfortable with, thus developing as an artist. However, artists who adhere to copying can "derail" their development the longer they stay with that tactic.

I'm not encouraging artists to try to make something totally different than what's out there. There's no reason an artist couldn't draw in the manga style, but if an artist just copies the styles used in Applegeeks or Inuyasha, then all they're doing is copying. Those are styles that are comfrotable for the artists who developed those them. It's very likely (and usually true) that copying those styles would be difficult. The "copying artist" could very likely draw in a manga style, but, on their own, might draw the eyes differently, or structure the figures in a different manner. Those differences would be what makes that artist unique, even though they happen to be drawing in the manga style. There's no reason not to draw in a style that's popular, but every artist has their own idioyncrasies that manifest in their art. That's what defines them, and that's what makes them unique.

Don't hesitate to procrastinate.
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Fabricari's picture

The Language of Comics

At some point in our development we all copy several artists. We don't pop out of the womb understanding the language of comics, so we steal conventions to add to our comic lexicon.

Manga, more than many comic cultures, is generalized for it's stylistic conventions because they are so different than European comics, yet consistant within that sub-culture.

Manga readers have learned to read the language and appreciate it. I don't mean Japanese, I mean conventions such as detailing the elements of the picture that has focus, switching from highly rendered to cartoony (frowned upon in western comics), the language of action lines, the conventions of vox bubbles, and so on.

This exists in all comic cultures; even webcomics are creating their uniques set of conventions. To generalize manga is like saying "All white people look the same." It depends on your background.

My advice is not to push away any style or comic culture. Allow yourself to steal these conventions and make them your own. But also steal from other cultures. Understand why certain techniques convey a particular type of story.

There are indeed a lot of amature artists out there. But this is because they don't understand the language of comics, and instead of assimilating and understanding, they're just looking at a style on the surface.


Fabricari - Sexy Robots and Violent Cyberpunk Comics

Steve "Fabricari" Harrison

Aleph's picture

There is a language though...

There's more to the manga language, too, though, there are conventions that, if ignored, will make people less receptive to the work. The 'look' of certain archetypes has been established, depending on what actual style you're using. Certain plotting styles are heavily favoured, and some even treat the plot as superfluous, providing little more than a means by which to drive the pretty characters around into different situations. Excel Saga is hilarious in the ways it sends up this kind of writing, though it focuses more on anime conventions than manga. Arguably, though, anime owes its plotting heritage to manga :). Fans tend to either reject works which don't show a sense of that symbolic language, or lay the symbolic interpretation on the characters regardless of the mangaka's intent. It's not far off of how many treat Spider-man as a black sheep in the super**** world, it defies significant bits of the visual/story language expected of the spandex world.

You've put your finger on why these 'manga is/isn't a style' discussions start, too. I think a lot of people don't realize that what they think of as a style is really just a stylized symbolic language and a set of conventions that get the most attention. People who are irritated with these conventions will see only those, just like people who are unwelcoming of spandex and huge overshaded muscles, as well as an anti-finality mindset, will tend to avoid super**** comics and say they're all the same.

What people see of manga is generally dictated by what the biggest mass of manga audiences are receptive to, same as super**** comics and graphic novels (OMG SO EMO! Well yeah, if all you're exposed to is Sandman and the Crow and you're the kind of person who yells OMG SO EMO!). There was a time when it seemed like all story-based comics looked like Mary Worth and Prince Valiant, too. Blee-ugh. It's just bias at work, and a limited view of what's there.

NeilCohn's picture

Visual accents

Beyond vocabulary, which largely has to do with creating meaning, langauge still has a very basic level of what sounds it makes. Spoken English and Japanese use different sounds to create words. This is where I think the "manga style" falls: as an overarching "line pattern" to the Japanese Visual Language that shapes their visual vocabulary. Not all people draw the same (individual's voices), there are variations among sub-groups/genres (accents), yet the broader whole is unified by this systematic patterning.

In contrast, the "individual-minded" American perspective limits the chance for a more systematic style across all genres, though within individual genres, some pervasive styles exist (like how superhero comics look at least similar to each other). This is more like dialect differences.

Relatedly, this is what I wrote in a comixpedia article here a couple years ago:

A narrow field of speakers is probably one reason why popular authors have such vast influence on other people's styles. If the "voices" are limited to a select group, learners can thus consciously select specific styles they wish to imitate (as opposed to acquiring the general "style" of the group). That is, of course, if learners decide to imitate at all, given the emphasis Art has in on our culture for innovation and individuality.

However, a print culture alone does not limit widespread regularity. Take for example the generalized style that permeates most Japanese comics, with facial features like big eyes, pointy noses and slender chins. Originally, that style stemmed from the "God of Comics" Osamu Tezuka (who himself emulated Walt Disney). First, his single popular "voice" influenced the styles of several others. In time though, it spread to so many people that it no longer could be identifiable as the way a small group of individuals drew, but fossilized as a "manga style" permeating a culture. At this point, new learners (such as the American children now reading manga) become more interested in learning the generalized system, regardless of the individual authors associated to it.

In contrast, American comics authors by and large have styles that slightly resemble those of other authors, but not to the degree of allowing for a complete generalized style. Widespread regularity would have difficulty emerging in a culture emphasizing originality of style. For instance, recall the many Jim Lee clone artists from the early and mid-1990s. These people started out like those who originally imitated Tezuka — they all shared common styles derived from an individual influence. However, unlike the Japanese example, most Jim Lee clones that have survived continued to develop their own individual styles, using his as a foundation for broader personal development. As a result, they might be systematic in their own work, but have only with tenuous relations to the rest of the language group. Thus, though the print culture might play a role in the exposure that individual "voices" have on the language users, it alone does not determine how the learners of the visual language might develop.

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Aleph's picture

They don't /actually/ all look the same.

The language of manga as a generalization might be more pervasive and codified, but I don't think they're as limited as is being said here, not if you're talking about actual working professionals. There are just as many mangaka whose work is identifiable on sight and traceable through derivatives as there are western comics. The artists need to adhere to the generalized language of manga as a requirement of doing business, and to satisfy a demanding audience, but they do each develop their individual voice very quickly if you know what to pay attention to. There as many people who couldn't possibly tell the difference between two muscly spandex squarejaws as can't tell the difference between two shiny-eyed catgirls.

I think one major point of difference in what we perceive is that the million zillion clones of western comic style don't go very far, whereas the manga culture gobbles up doujinshi and derivative work indiscriminately. Fan comics are not a cultural thing in the US. Most of your clone art doesn't get further than college newspapers or detective novels which are sold from under the counter, if you catch my drift. Plenty of it gets /made/ though. Open a collection of college papers and see how many wannabe garfields and wannabe Cathys and wannabe Far Sides and wannabe Boondocks etc etc etc you can find.

The other major point of difference is that manga must be drawn quickly, cheaply, and in a prolific manner. The business over there is set up so that in order to profit you must have several titles running consecutively, which does not leave a creator a lot of room to be individual. Very simplified work allows them to do what they need to in order to turn out comics at a rate sufficient to pay the bills. Same thing happens in high-demand art markets in America, as Smurfs/Snorks/etc and Million-zillion-detective-shows-with-animal-sidekick prove quite well. There's just much less consumption of comic books in America period, regardless of art, so we see this effect in animation much more regularly than in comics. Mangaka often start with less /control/ over the manga, as well, and publishers can dictate style changes. On top of that, mimicry is what prepares a would-be mangaka for the entry-level inker/filler work that will get them into the business.

So you get a greater /volume/ of manga in general, and the highest volume of manga is forced into these easy-to-produce styles, and that can lead to the idea that there is less individuality, especially given a limited import sample. Importers bring over what is tried, true, and salesworthy. Imitators from outside Japanese culture further narrow the field by imitating only what is best-received from this narrow sample. It's as if you were judging all Western comics given only a few titles from the DC/Marvel books and a smattering from Dark Horse.

Much of the derivative and style-copying work in Western culture is just concentrated into the heritage system of Marvel/DC books, the animation culture, or in copying Japanese art. It's not that the West is less limited and more able to derive individual styles, it's that the market is set up to be less receptive to things that do not stand out from the crowd. It's less an emphasis on art and its quality than an emphasis on marketability and shelfspace. The storm of copies did happen, it was called the Golden Age. The Golden Age taught us the Western consumer is easily bored away from comics in general, that when everything looks like everything else and reads like everything else, sales of everything-- even tried and true titles-- sag like an old stripper. I would agree that indicated an emphasis on individual art except that the rebirth of comics did not actually come with a diversification of art style so much as a narrowing of titles and more emphasis on writing/polish on all titles across the board. Publishing houses here look for art that will stand apart because that's generally what it takes to snag the western consumer, it's an insistance not so much on art individuality-- who does the art for what book is often switched around, in fact-- as on individuality in the title itself.

There's less in common between Bakuretsu Hunters and FLCL or Pokemon or Sailor Moon than there is between Penny Arcade and Stephen Silver, or between Dave Gibbons and Tom Yeates, or Mike McKone and Salvadore Larocca and all the other people who developed off Jim Lee. There seem to be more Burton/Vasquez fusions out there every day, each kind of style fad gets its own following same as the manga styles do. They just don't turn into the kind of fast-blooming fad-craze you see with some manga styles. It's not the emphasis on art, it's the attention we focus and how we apply it, combined with the business climate. If the Western consumer started buying in the kind of volume the Japanese consumer does, and if the Western artist were willing to accept the kind of contracts and pay schedule the Japanese artist does, you can bet the big companies would be churning out art as fast as they could, and the false impression that Western art is more individual would evaporate.

jsandas's picture

Very good point

Many of the things I would consider typical for manga – clean line art, little variation in line weight, defining shapes with simple outlines and so on* – have more to do with the production process than with anything else. Both the economical demand to produce lots of pages quickly and the technical demand that these pages must be suitable for black and white printing on rather cheap paper must affect the "style" a lot before the individual artist even comes into the process.

*And I'm sure somebody who knows more about these things than I do could point out lots and lots of Japanese comics that don't share these traits (oh no, it's only my third post here and I'm using footnotes already).
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NeilCohn's picture

More

I'm not saying that people in America don't imitate people at all. In fact, I think the natural tendency for learning is imitation. You may be correct that there are market forces going on too, but there is an underlying trend for our culture to say "you should draw with your own individual style instead of like others" (as was done throughout this thread). The sheer presence of this thread shows that these two forces are at work. Regarding the market presence, couldn't you also say that the lack of consumption/notice/supply of imitated styles in America might also be due to a preference for individualism?

And, while all the manga artists you list may have their own individual "visual voices" distinct from each other, you can tell that they all belong to a broader style that is recognizable as "Japanese" at a glance, beyond genre and individuals.

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------- Studying the Visual Language of "Comics" - http://www.emaki.net

rezo's picture

I don't think being able to

I don't think being able to recognize the region a comic came from or was influenced by is particularly meaningful. You could just as easily see Spiderman and Charlie Brown as being American, but that isn't because they're part of a broad American style. It's because they're two approaches that you know developed in America.

I think the main unifier of manga is that the vast majority is black and white. How comics are produced plays a big role in how styles develop. Like with how comic strips tend to have squat characters which fit nicely in the tiny boxes made for them. American independent press comics are black and white, but usually without heavy half-tones; perhaps because the old halftone film was pretty expensive and the books didn't make a lot of money to justify the costs, unlike the mass produced manga. But these things are seen as pure stylistic choices by the young artist, and so they adopt them for the sake of their appeal rather than necessity. They grow up designing squished cartoon characters, working in the similar black and white "sometimes + 1" style of their favorite comics; the manga fans want their grays to be created by halftones instead of ink washes or pencils, etc.

And I think the "followers of Jim Lee broke away into new individual styles unlike manga artists" seems like a terrible example. There aren't any manga artists I can think of who made their career by just mimicking someone they like, or at least certainly not to any degree greater than what I tend to see when glancing at the old Super Hero books or graphic novels.

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NeilCohn's picture

Regions

I'm less trying to invoke meaning from regional difference as I am for subcultural groups. We certainly have a cultural group of "comics", under which falls Charlie Brown and Spiderman. However, they belong to two different sub-groupings within this idealized abstract "comics" that is associated with their visual style – cartoony versus "muscle-bound."

What I was trying to show is that this style/subculture split is very similar to that of dialects and accents in language. We recognize a broader standard English in America, but we also see that there are variations based on regional accents (Southern Drawl, Boston's lack of R's), or subcultural dialects (Black English). Visual styles and spoken variations aren't so much about region as they are about subculture – and that is what becomes associated by region (but less so more and more because of globalization).

And you're right, most manga artists don't make their career mimicking someone else – they do it largely by imitating a style that has permeated across a whole culture. You skipped over my point that the manga style initially grew from imitation of Tezuka and then grew beyond being associated with any one person. This is exactly my individualism vs. communalism point.

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Studying the Visual Language of "Comics" - www.emaki.net

------- Studying the Visual Language of "Comics" - http://www.emaki.net

rezo's picture

I think taking a single

I think taking a single figure and making him the sole reference point for the styles that developed over time is just lazy. Look at japanese comics before his time, and various approaches to illustration and you'll see that the conventions did not just pop up suddenly with Tezuka, nor is all manga made in his hayday reminiscent of his approach. There are also the illustrators that created stories for kami-shibai and adapted them to comics in when the popularity declined. Certainly they were influenced by the art of their contemporaries, but they had likely developed their approach before Tezuka had any fame, and for whatever similarities you can find in their work, it could hardly be said they were derivative.

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Aleph's picture

All your research proves is that Japan is under-researched.

You skipped over the bolded, italicized text that pointed out that I believe what you perceive about manga is influenced by market forces and the inordinate amount of material available, very little of which makes its way to people who don't, like, actually go into Japanese bookstores. In an actual Japanese bookstore, the manga section is HUGE and styles range from edgy and realistic to exaggerations that make 'chibi' look downright normal.

But here's why I'll leave this to cooler heads:

Quote:
You skipped over my point that the manga style initially grew from imitation of Tezuka and then grew beyond being associated with any one person. This is exactly my individualism vs. communalism point.

I didn't skip over it, I politely didn't mention it, because I found it to be ignorant and upsetting.

Just to throw out a few names: Hagio Moto (!!!), Takashima Kazusa, Chrono (Kurono) Nanae, and Nobuhiro Watsuki.

And I don't even READ manga. I just actually, like, know some Japanese people who do and those are names they've mentioned enough to stick in my gaijin brain. There are a wealth of others. We have friends in Yokohama, people who have been really good to us. And that's why I gotta back out of this discussion, because I'm just barely biting my tongue and keeping myself from biting off yours for the things you're implying about Japanese people and their inability to be individuals, based on your IGNORANCE of their cultures, which is MYSTIFYING considering the things you've said you've done to learn about them. I don't care if you have gotten academic credentials here. If you really believe what you're saying, I'm sad for you.

NeilCohn's picture

Not getting me

Ok, I think you're just not getting me. First off, I would hardly think I have under-researched Japan, considering that I majored in Japanese culture as an undergrad and have lived there. I know very well the diversity of Japanese artists in bookstores, since I've actually, y'know, gone to a countless number of them all over Japan and was in one last weekend here in America.

Secondly, all of the variety of artists you've mentioned post-date Tezuka, and all of them play off of the theme that he brought to the manga style. Yes, there are plenty of variations in the style of both those and other authors, and those variations often are tied to particular genres, but all of them have some recognizable base that originated in his style. (And, admittedly, some hardly follow that style at all, to which I say that they simply fall outside the established visual manga style).

The notion of a "manga style" is an abstract ideal, not where everybody is some carbon-copy of each other. This is just like how "pure" "English" is idealized. Though each of us use roughly the same sounds, none of us sound exactly the same. This is true for manga.

And, if you don't think it began with Tezuka, then find me proof that predates his and I'll agree whole-heartedly (other than Disney, which he claimed as his influence). Hokusai's work, who coined the term "manga", doesn't look that way. The < a href="http://www.jai2.com/HK.htm">"Four Immigrants Manga" doesn't look that way. And, to be very clear on this, I'm not saying that every single person happened to imitate just one individual (Tezuka or otherwise). I'm saying that Tezuka established a style that then became extremely widespread so as to transcend individuals – yet it still allows for individual voices.

Finally, if you think I am discounting the ability of Japanese to be individuals, then you are completely missing what I'm getting at. I'm not saying that Japanese artists or people aren't individuals, or that the Japanese culture is somehow more community oriented (which is a frequent stereotype of Asians in general that I'm not interested in debating).

Rather, I'm saying that there are two competing cultural forces regarding the creation of images in any culture/individual:

1. There is one cultural force that says drawing like an established style – from an individual or group – is okay, and that a person could find their own unique visual voice within that style. (which I termed "Language")

2. The other point of view says that imitating others is not kosher, and that people should find their own individual style unattached from that of a group. (which I termed "Art")

These forces compete with each other in Japan, in America, in Europe... all over the place. What I am curious about is how different cultures respond to these forces. Japanese seems to favor the first type, though not monolithically like some borg. Americans seem to favor the second type, also not covered by every single American.

In fact, any time we see "American made manga" that uses the generalized manga style (as was pointed out at the first post of this thread), those individuals are choosing the first tact over the second. Gosh, I hope you don't think I'm saying all those Americans aren't individuals too, cause wouldn't that rip through the fiber of our cultural stereotypes!

Edit: With all that said, there is always more research to be done, both by me and others. I hardly know everything about Japan (or America!), though I believe I know enough to draw arguable conclusions. If you (or someone else) does the research that can conclusively show something different from any of my ideas, then I'll be the first in line to read it.

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Studying the Visual Language of "Comics" - www.emaki.net

------- Studying the Visual Language of "Comics" - http://www.emaki.net

Aleph's picture

That's what I said was MYSTIFYING

I'm well aware of all the things you talk about doing, which is why I find this utterly mystifying! And while we're comparing here, I live with somebody who travels to Japan to work, I work with somebody who's travelled Japan extensively and goes back every chance she gets, and I grew up with first-gen immigrants and people who were only in Hawai'i to work, so if you think I'm going to be intimidated by that you're dead wrong. All you're proving is that exposure to a foreign country doesn't necessarily mean someone will become informed, which is depressing.

You don't even speak with enough awareness of 'the' culture to know that nobody speaking kansai-ben has as much in common with someone speaking tokyo-ben as someone from Florida has with someone from Los Angeles. You throw things around like references to their 'communalism' and then you try to separate yourself from stereotypes about Asian hive-identity?

Tezuka worked for FOUR DECADES! He adapted to changes in the styles just like any other artist. He didn't invent them /all/. If you're going to play the 'predate' card then ALL your individual artists lose out to Will Eisner. All the ones you cited, to a man.

Moto was the mother of girl comics for crissakes! She was a huge influence! Takashima Kazusa brought a hyper-realism that spawned an entire sub-genre of art that paid homage to his insight into how the form could be interpreted. There are shelves and shelves full of people trying to push that style further. Chrono Nanae, I've been told, brought maturity to some of the art that was at the time unmatched, especially when it came to bringing bloody realism to historical comics which often shied away from depictions of the ugly realities of history, and still doing so in an attractive way. Nobu I didn't find out much about, that's a recent name that's been bounced off me.

Doujinshi are not considered to be art by the artist in their own respect, they are a kind of fandom. Passing off completely derivative and stolen characters of another work as your own is deeply frowned upon and ridiculed in Japanese manga fandom. Many artists who go on to do their own work in their own style start out in this kind of fandom, but they do not pass their doujinshi off as anything but and they MUST develop their own styles to be taken seriously. Just because they all look alike and derivative to you doesn't mean they are, there are traditions in linestyles, eye styles, anatomy, even wrinkling that have their own distinct heritages and their own individual interpretations.

Place what you said in the opposite bias, and you get this:

"Well, Western art is more geared towards selfishness and decadence, so they're not really capable of creating any kind of solidarity or defining characteristics. It's just that their mentality shows a tendency to choose the self-absorbed and materialistic, so that they would not know how to appreciate the influences that came before. The fact that they do not recognize one single fathering influence in their comics is just proof of their self-absorbed vs. culturally sensitive mentality. Since they do not tend to choose deference to those who paved the way for them, it is only natural that they would not recognize their defining influences or be willing to accept elements of each others' styles that would improve their own."

It's wrong, it's uninformed, and it's upsetting.

I offered to bow out of this because I do take it personally, so, I make no claim to having no bias here. I hate people who act the way you do, as if you could just sum up an entire people into a set of 'they seem to do this' and 'they're just wired this way' crap.

You find me proof that predates Will Eisner, you find me comics that are made in America that don't use his basic tenets of sequential storytelling and his 22 panels that work. Find me books free of his ideas of space and weight and emphasis, his thoughts on handling bubbles and lettering, and make sure they all predate him. That is the very nature of a founding father in an industry. It doesn't mean no one since derived an influential voice, and it doesn't mean an entire culture is less appreciative of individuality than another. It means YOU got an idea in your head about the motives and the nature of another set of people and you decided for them what they did and did not believe. The fact that you seem to manage to know Japanese people who think that way and I don't know a single one who thinks that way only further goes to prove my point that there is no overbearing influence toward communality here, that the influence is on what you are and aren't accepting as valid.

You can read Japanese, fluently, I do not get why you don't read some of the interviews with these various mangaka and listen to what they cite as influences. Yes, all of them pay some respect to the guy who made these things household names, the one who pushed the hardest and produced the most and became the top of the field. Just because less people in Western comics bother to show that they've learned about the cultural background of their comics and the history of those who did the most work in the field when paying respect to influences doesn't mean that we're any less influenced, and it doesn't mean the entire Japanese country is less single-minded and less individual.

NeilCohn's picture

Deep breath...

I'm not questioning your creditentials to speak with knowledge about Japan, and I wasn't trying to "intimidate" you. You clearly have a strong understanding of Japanese culture yourself, in some respects admittedly more than my own. And, for full disclosure, I don't speak or read Japanese fluently, just proficiently (largely kanto-ben with lots of inaka-ben thrown in).

To repeat, I'm not saying that the Japanese have some sort of "communality" mentality or "wiring", nor have I been saying that anywhere in my writings. I don't think Japanese are community oriented and I don't think Americans are individualistic. I think that you're lumping me in with an argument that I'm not making, simply because its something you're senstive about (and rightly so, IMO, it's something worth being sensitive about).

My reference to "communalism" is only in the context of creating graphic images. A better word for it would be "conventionality," cause that's what I'm talking about – establishing conventionalized ways of drawing. Superhero comics have a certain degree of conventionalized style; so do cartoony drawings (three fingers!?). Native Australian sand narratives are entirely communal/conventional. Does that mean that "as a culture" they are somehow more community-oriented? I'm certainly not going to make that claim, but I can say there is a high degree of conventionality to their drawings.

I haven't said that other people beyond Tezuka didn't have an influence. I said that his influence was initially very strong, that's all. If that wasn't clear, then my bad. Of course other people have had influences on Japan's style(s), and it would be ridiculous to think that every single person in Japan tries/d to imitate only Tezuka.

I also keep acknowledging that there ARE different styles in Japan, and individuals DO have their own styles, though they play off a common abstract base. That abstracted base is very conventional – and if it weren't there wouldn't be "how to draw manga" books. I CAN see there is individuality within communality (in drawing styles).

Comparatively, American superhero comics were profoundly influenced by Kirby. Is he the only influence? Not at all. And the "individualism" they show permeates enough that there is a significant departure from his style, though they can still be associated to the broader superhero style. Am I saying that Americans as a subculture who read/draw superhero books are "individualistic with a dash of communalism"? No.

I understand and sympathize with why you would feel strongly about this, but I really don't think I'm making the claims you think I am.

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Studying the Visual Language of "Comics" - www.emaki.net

------- Studying the Visual Language of "Comics" - http://www.emaki.net

Aleph's picture

Your words, not mine.

Yeah, well, your pages make you out to be proficient in the language and your claims make you out to be well acquainted in the region, so, you can hardly fault me for thinking you were fluent enough to read Shonen Jump after looking you up.

Quote:

I'm not saying that people in America don't imitate people at all. In fact, I think the natural tendency for learning is imitation. You may be correct that there are market forces going on too, but there is an underlying trend for our culture to say "you should draw with your own individual style instead of like others" (as was done throughout this thread). The sheer presence of this thread shows that these two forces are at work. Regarding the market presence, couldn't you also say that the lack of consumption/notice/supply of imitated styles in America might also be due to a preference for individualism?

And, while all the manga artists you list may have their own individual "visual voices" distinct from each other, you can tell that they all belong to a broader style that is recognizable as "Japanese" at a glance, beyond genre and individuals.

Emphasis mine, words, entirely yours.

Quote:

I'm less trying to invoke meaning from regional difference as I am for subcultural groups. We certainly have a cultural group of "comics", under which falls Charlie Brown and Spiderman. However, they belong to two different sub-groupings within this idealized abstract "comics" that is associated with their visual style – cartoony versus "muscle-bound."

Why is it valid to separate cartoony versus muscle-bound and call that a valid division, whereas it's not valid to separate the wide variety of hyper-realistic Takashima Kasuza inspired comics from the ultra-cute Super Milk Chan types and the edgy sketchy FLCL experimental comics? Why is American diversification from type valid and not Japanese?

Quote:

I haven't said that other people beyond Tezuka didn't have an influence. I said that his influence was initially very strong, that's all. If that wasn't clear, then my bad. Of course other people have had influences on Japan's style(s), and it would be ridiculous to think that every single person in Japan tries/d to imitate only Tezuka.

And yet...

Quote:

However, a print culture alone does not limit widespread regularity. Take for example the generalized style that permeates most Japanese comics, with facial features like big eyes, pointy noses and slender chins. Originally, that style stemmed from the "God of Comics" Osamu Tezuka (who himself emulated Walt Disney). First, his single popular "voice" influenced the styles of several others. In time though, it spread to so many people that it no longer could be identifiable as the way a small group of individuals drew, but fossilized as a "manga style" permeating a culture. At this point, new learners (such as the American children now reading manga) become more interested in learning the generalized system, regardless of the individual authors associated to it.

In contrast, American comics authors by and large have styles that slightly resemble those of other authors, but not to the degree of allowing for a complete generalized style. Widespread regularity would have difficulty emerging in a culture emphasizing originality of style. For instance, recall the many Jim Lee clone artists from the early and mid-1990s. These people started out like those who originally imitated Tezuka — they all shared common styles derived from an individual influence. However, unlike the Japanese example, most Jim Lee clones that have survived continued to develop their own individual styles, using his as a foundation for broader personal development. As a result, they might be systematic in their own work, but have only with tenuous relations to the rest of the language group. Thus, though the print culture might play a role in the exposure that individual "voices" have on the language users, it alone does not determine how the learners of the visual language might develop.

AND...

Quote:

You skipped over my point that the manga style initially grew from imitation of Tezuka and then grew beyond being associated with any one person. This is exactly my individualism vs. communalism point.

YOU'RE the one who defined your communalism point. I didn't take it out of context or just 'not get you'.

So how am I 'just not getting you'? These are your words, completely in the context you are giving them, I didn't snip a single pretentious self-quoting word. You recognize that there are dialects in Japanese language, that there are differences in their styles, and yet somehow that still does not DENT your idea that only the West has dialects in their THINKING and only the West has valid differences in style.

Quote:

I also keep acknowledging that there ARE different styles in Japan, and individuals DO have their own styles, though they play off a common abstract base. That abstracted base is very conventional – and if it weren't there wouldn't be "how to draw manga" books. I CAN see there is individuality within communality (in drawing styles).

Comparatively, American superhero comics were profoundly influenced by Kirby. Is he the only influence? Not at all. And the "individualism" they show permeates enough that there is a significant departure from his style, though they can still be associated to the broader superhero style.

Again, I point out, EVERY SINGLE ONE of those oh-so-unique Jim Lee clones or Kirby derivatives looks like Will Eisner more than any generalized 'manga style' looks like Tezuka. And every single frigging comic ever shares more commonality with Will Eisner than 90 percent of individual Japanese comic shares with Tezuka. You know, Will Eisner? 1930s father of comics? Inventor of the graphic novel? Practically the inventor of comics that made use of sequential art in the way we all consider standard today? That guy Disney stole the handwriting of? That guy we give awards named after? The guy Stan Lee wanted to be? The guy who just died last year?

You are ruling one culture's ideas as validly different and another's as not based on YOUR biases and your puffed up imaginary xenophilia and it is aggravating, and every single Japanese person I've pointed to this has found it aggravating, it's not just me. This is really no different than the 'those people all look alike' crap, you're just dressing it up in pretty trappings but it's UPSETTING. To you, Western ideas are beautiful unique snowflakes and Japanese are all beholden to one style. And I am telling you that from the outside, you can look at Western comics and say the same damn thing. You take the most indefensible position-- Jim Lee styles, which are used by different artists to do the SAME DAMN BOOKS, interchangeably-- and make a case for America's individuality-driven mindset, and then you act like you're not making a cultural statement in the process? You're the one who attributed this to a cultural mindset, not me. I didn't take something you said and DaVinci Code my way to an offensive statement here. Your words. YOUR WORDS.

Just because you, in all your education, have never stopped to appreciate the differences in the ways people express their individual creativity in another culture, does not mean it does not exist. Just because you, from your vantage point of Western superiority, discount the people that the actual mangaka say are important to them, including western influences like Marvel and DC, and proclaim them all to be culturally geared toward communalism in their artistic expression, does not make it true. There is as much communalism in American comics as there is in Japanese comics and it is only your personal bias which can lump all those things together and say that this is a culturally driven phenomenon. There is no more communalism in the big eyes tiny chins conventions than there is in the big-chest full-lips broad-shouldered conventions in the very art you cited as so all-fired individual. 'How To Draw Manga' is no more proof of Japanese artistic tendency to group-think than How to Draw Comic Heroes and Villains or 'How to Draw Cartoons for Comic Strips' are, and the fact is that 'Manga University' is capitalizing on a /foreign/ market of fascination.

Western art looks unique to you because you grew up in the midst of it, you grew up with greater sensitivity to its design. Guess what, sand narratives meant something to the people who made them, and they weren't 'communal' either. The Central Arrernte told stories to their children using a few conventions, such as only drawing the visible features of a scene, leaving tracks when things moved, deepening the tracks of things that stayed in one place longer, drawing as if from above, and the ego-centric orientation, and the conditions under which a scene was 'wiped', but the tales themselves were so individual as to have few recorded 'standards'. These 'communalist' ideas have more to do with the nature of Arrernte language, their handling of existential verbs and their perspective tied to the idea of narrative, but the reason they permeate has to do with honouring culture and keeping it strong, not with sacrificing individuality to a communal idea. The central Arrernte are so far from communal, they aren't even an unified people, they are a smattering of tribes that share only versions of the same language and a few traditions. But, surprise surprise, you refer to them as 'Native Australian' despite a websearch (had to check my spelling of 'Arrernte', since most people find 'Aranda' confusing) betraying that you know better than that.

Westerners tell stories based on a few conventions, they even use codified openings like 'once upon a time' and create tales so formulaic that you can read Hamlet in gangsterlicious, cartoon lion, broadway dance, "the original Klingon" or whatever form you like. THE PEOPLE YOU GREW UP WITH ARE NOT MORE INDIVIDUAL JUST BECAUSE YOU KNOW THEM WELL ENOUGH TO RECOGNIZE THEIR INDIVIDUALITY AS REAL.

'The Japanese' are much more diverse than you are giving them credit for, and every single point you are bringing up here ONLY WORKS if you assume, a priori, that American diversity is valid and Japanese diversity is not. That Western departure from style is SIGNIFICANT (YOUR WORD) but Japanese departure from style is not. How did such a good school turn out such a poor analyst?

Don't 'sympathise' with me. You have zero foundation for claiming to understand my perspective here, and you're not helping your case treating me as though I'm simply not comprehending what you're saying. You deal with others based on their points and their analysis, but with me you just repeat yourself with the statement that I'm just not 'getting' you? Guess what, you're not talking over my head here. You haven't said one thing so far I haven't been able to grasp. I just think you're WRONG.

xerexes's picture

Been Following This Part of the Thread And...

It is possible, you know, that the two of you just strongly disagree and while sometimes people can try to explain their positions to each other, it is not always possible to convince each other that they are wrong and you are right.

If we've reached that point here, perhaps it's time to agree to disagree (or agree to fail to understand each other if that's more accurate) in this thread.

____

Xaviar Xerexes 

I am a Modern Major Generality.

Xaviar Xerexes Oh yeah... this place is called ComixTalk now.
Aleph's picture

Hey, I offered to back out

I offered to back out of this thread when I knew he was hitting a nerve knowing how important my otaku friends were, he decided to keep on calling me out and pretending I just didn't 'get' him. He's gone far past hitting that nerve to basically discounting the people I grew up with, and their entire nation, I think I've been pretty restrained considering. My statements are supported with quotes, counterexamples, and analysis. His are supported with nothing more than self-citation and assumption. Assumption which must, in order to be accepted, automatically discount the validity of individuality in the Japanese.

I don't care if he ever agrees with me, it's not important to me. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. But if you're going to support the possibility that I'm just not understanding, I'd like you to back up that statement. I've backed up my statements with more than self-citation, he just keeps repeating the initial position and not only has he not refuted my counterexamples but he fails to acknowledge most of them. Instead I get saccharine banter about positions I never stated, like:

Quote:

In fact, any time we see "American made manga" that uses the generalized manga style (as was pointed out at the first post of this thread), those individuals are choosing the first tact over the second. Gosh, I hope you don't think I'm saying all those Americans aren't individuals too, cause wouldn't that rip through the fiber of our cultural stereotypes!

Find me anywhere in my statements where I made the case that he was saying anybody who mimicked style was not an individual, rather than making the case that his argument about communality was making a false cultural argument towards a communalist mindset versus placing value on the individual-- something he stated for himself, which I have repeatedly quoted. And not only did I not rise to patronizing statements like that, I did not even jab him for misuse of words.

I may criticize his analysis and I admit I did blurt out a couple of my personal opinions as to what he's depicting about a Western superiority mindset, but all things considered I have not been betraying any lack of understanding here. Just a failure to agree or defer to him, neither of which he's earned here in my view.

[edit] And if you're going to jump like this into every discussion in which I dig into hard fact and information, ask people to back their claims and pursue the issue past the surface, I'm going to take that as a message that serious discussion isn't welcome here and just move on. I don't need a referee, I've proven in several threads that I'm perfectly capable of leaving a thread once it goes past the point where constructive dialogue is possible.

xerexes's picture

Aleph...

I'm not taking any sides at all here - it's been an interesting discussion between you and Neil and I was only pointing out that sometimes there's only so far you can go in a specific discussion - sometimes you either don't agree or you don't understand each other and that's about it

I can't read your mind or Neil's so I don't know exactly what either of you are thinking.  As long as things stay civil, you and Neil can go round and round for the rest of the year if you want - I'm not trying to cut you off, just offering an observation, that's all.

Also I'm not saying you or Neil are being uncivil - I just pop in now and then on threads to try and reinforce to everyone that Comixpedia is a place for civil discussion - aggressive yes, but also civil. 

 

____

Xaviar Xerexes 

I am a Modern Major Generality.

Xaviar Xerexes Oh yeah... this place is called ComixTalk now.
Aleph's picture

I'm hypersensitive to pattern

That actually is the way I'm wired, no problem admitting it. Patterns mean more to me than they do to most people. You tend to jump in replying to my posts with this reminder to be civil, and I have a track record here of being civil, not only with people who disagree with me, but with people who mistreat me, I was even civil when my stalker showed up here.

I have a three year history of rejecting the drama llama, and I wasn't always lurking during that time either, this is just the first year I've made a commitment not to reject the community at large and to try to meet it on its terms-- since members of it met me on mine and helped me out, giving me a reason to push myself to try to meet them on equal footing. So try to take that into account if you could, and I'll try to remember that you don't mean it to seem like hopping in to stop me from challenging others' statements more than most people would.

xerexes's picture

I'm sorry if you're taking this personally

Aleph wrote:
[edit] And if you're going to jump like this into every discussion in which I dig into hard fact and information, ask people to back their claims and pursue the issue past the surface, I'm going to take that as a message that serious discussion isn't welcome here and just move on. I don't need a referee, I've proven in several threads that I'm perfectly capable of leaving a thread once it goes past the point where constructive dialogue is possible.

 

I must have missed this part of your post - please don't make this into a personal thing - I have not made any effort to focus on you (Aleph) as opposed to anyone else on this site.

What I am doing is to focus on the website as a whole.  I decided earlier this year because of things which have always happened in webcomics, but frankly accelerated last year to reinforce Comixpedia as a place for serious discussion and to keep the personal stuff and drama to a minimum.  There are other sites where threads can and do turn rather nasty and I don't want that here - I want to keep focused on, as you say, serious discussion.

What I am doing right now is proactively reminding the community as gently as I can that there are boundaries to discussion here.  Most of the advice I've read on keeping a public discussion forum healthy seem to suggest a light, proactive hand is actually quite effective at setting and reinforcing community stds and expectations.

So my apologies if you've taken any of my comments personally - they're not intended that way and I'm pretty sure I've been careful to always note that for the most part I am not calling people out for bad behavior but rather trying to show where I do not want the conversation here to go. 

____

Xaviar Xerexes 

I am a Modern Major Generality.

Xaviar Xerexes Oh yeah... this place is called ComixTalk now.
Aleph's picture

Yeah, no problem :)

Like I said in my above post, which I think we were writing simultaneously, I'm hypersensitive to pattern.

But since you've explained, I'm certainly going to take your word as to your motives over my pattern-sensitivity, no worries.

xerexes's picture

Cross Posting!

 Aleph,

Thanks for those two posts - I definitely didn't realize that's how you were perceiving it and I'll keep that in mind for the future.

____

Xaviar Xerexes 

I am a Modern Major Generality.

Xaviar Xerexes Oh yeah... this place is called ComixTalk now.
Fabricari's picture

The Tapering Tapistry of Topical Tantrums

A really neat feature of this site is that threads like these will phsically taper. I think this post will show up as a quarter inch wide on my monitor!

Steve "Fabricari" Harrison

The William G's picture

yah!

Letsee if we cant get it down to one letter wide!
_____

The William G - Romantic Drama, Post-Apocalyptic Monsters, and More Comic Experimentation


The William G's picture

cool!

I'm liking how it's putting my avatar on top of my message, you should make that a regular feature, Xaviar
_____

The William G - Romantic Drama, Post-Apocalyptic Monsters, and More Comic Experimentation


NeilCohn's picture

Last time

Ok, this is the last time I'm going to say this, because I think at this point no matter what I say, you're not going to listen to what words I'm actually saying, and instead substituting what you think I'm saying.

And, while I could take you point by point and show where you are misunderstanding and distorting my own meaning (despite the words being left in their original context), I'll instead try to restate and re-explain my ideas as clear and concise as possible. If you don't get it from here, then that's your problem not mine (can someone else respond to what I'm saying too, just so I know if I'm being clear in what I think I'm saying?)

I hope you also note that I will refrain from hurling personal attacks and insults throughout my response. If you were to meet me in person or follow my statements online, you'd find that I try to be one of the most unpretentious, unorientalist, and accepting people you'll ever meet, both to cultures and individuals. I really don't care what people's backgrounds are and generally welcome feedback and discussion from anyone who wants to engage me. If anything, I have tried to champion the value and acceptance of the balance of both commonality and diversity in all of my writings and theories, and have railed against entrenched theories saying otherwise.

Any time I write the words "communalism" or "individualism" it does not mean I am making broad scale sweeping cultural assumptions about the Japanese (or other) "cultural mentality." To you, these words are red flags of my supposed bigotry because they are commonly used terms for stereotypes (that I'm not making), but to me they are shorthand for an extensive theory only in the context of my theories about graphic creation.

Similarly, it is easier to say "Native Australian" than "Native Central Australian tribes" or "Arrernte, Warlpiri, and other native tribes of Central Australia that share many broad scale conventions though they each have departures in styles." Brevity does not mean bigotry or misinformation.

That said... before you read my statements, take a deep breath, try to forget the entire discussion we've had before, and try to imagine that I'm making this case for the first time. Then, after you've read what I've said, see if it matches what you think my opinion is from before...

Let me make a claim far stronger than any you think I've been making:

I believe that the mentality of conventionality for creating graphic images is actually the predisposed nature for ALL humans. The cognitive preference for everybody is for imitation. The human mind is a pattern receiving/making machine, whether you're Japanese, American, Arrernte, Warlpiri, French, Chinese, Somalian... whatever.

The "cultural force" I speak of (that I call "Art") works against that natural inclination for conventionality that is naturally wired into all people by insisting on individuality of drawing style. The evidence that this influence exists is right in the quandry from the very first post of this thread, which is why I commented on it.

A community is a collection of individuals. Each of those individuals responds to the balance between conventionality and the Art pespective in different ways (probably more like a gradient, but discrete here for clarity):

1. Some use conventionality to a maximal degree and don't care about individuality at all (though as a unique individual mind there is always some degree of individuality).
2. Some embrace conventionality to a high degree and mark out their individuality in small and fine-grained ways.
3. Others make huge breaks with conventionality to create styles that hardly look like any other person or group at all.

Cultures are created by the collection of these communities composed of individuals. Various communities and cultures respond to all of the things I've described above in different ways, based on the choices the individuals make in response to the stimuli around them (both graphic stimuli and community attitudes). Some may respond more like #1, some may do more like #2, and some more like #3. These responses happen in all cultures, distributed in different ways: in America, in Japan, in Australia, in France... all of them. In no culture will every single person follow any one type of tendency, so long as the influence of Art is present in that culture (which is just about everywhere at this point).

I do not think Americans are more individualistic culturally. I do not think Japanese are more communal culturally. I do not think that the various tribes of Central Australia are more communal culturally.

---------------------
Studying the Visual Language of "Comics" - www.emaki.net

------- Studying the Visual Language of "Comics" - http://www.emaki.net

Aleph's picture

Last time here too.

1) I characterized your behaviour as pretentious, and your statements. I find self-citation to be unbearably pretentious, as I do the type of argument which does not back itself with anything beyond more supposition and generalization. I found your patronizing statements, your conviction that I simply didn't 'get' you, and your unwillingness to deal with counterexamples all built a picture of close-mindedness and assumption. I backed every one of those opinions up with the statements that formed them. I found your unwillingness to examine the a priori requirements of your statements betrayed a very poor analysis. At no time did I attack anything but the attitudes you were depicting with the statements you were making. I'm sorry if the way I phrased them was too strong and too heated, but I warned you about my bias right away and offered to stay clear of the discussion.

If you think it's not insulting, if you think it's not a personal attack to be told that I am distorting things or reacting to 'red flag words' with no substance, then you really don't place as much value on intelligence, integrity and substantive thought as I do. If you think it's any more polite to be told that, despite having made a meticulous effort to be fair in my quotations and to back every statement I made with supporting examples and reasonable thought, than to be told that self-citation is pretentious, then I really don't know what to make of you. If you think it's less insulting to be mocked based on an argument I didn't make, sympathized with based on things I don't feel, etc, than to be told in a detailed way how your statements are skewed toward an inflated idea of how much you understand, then I question your grasp of the importance of individualism in general.

2) I did not react to any red-flag words, you contrasted the value placed on individuality between one culture and another. You contrasted the value placed on individuality, on several occasions, between Western culture and Japanese, and you did so based on an utterly false premise you've yet to support. I quoted your statement saying /exactly/ what you defined your argument to be. That your word choice belied the statements you later made was simply a fact, not the entire cause and foundation of my response. If you'd simply chosen a poor word to say what you were saying, and the premise of your argument had nothing to do with contrasting an individually-minded Western culture with a supposedly un-individual uncreative Japanese culture, I would not have reacted.

3) It boggles the mind how someone can possibly distort the meaning of someone else's words by reprinting them, unedited, in their original context. That is some kind of voodoo I don't grasp. You've finally said something that I just don't get.

4) Regardless of whether you believe these are characteristics of all human beings or not, you still contrasted the values by culture and placed value and significance on the digressions in one culture while dismissing entirely the digressions in another. You dismissed entirely the mangakas' own statements about their influences and dismissed the people that have made impact on their industry, while bringing out parallel figures in the Western industry and touting their impact and importance.

I am not, neurologically nor personally, capable of pretending that what has been said has not been said, period. That's just not a way I can operate. So I can't engage in the hypothetical with you. I can only point out, once again, that your statements discount the individuality of one nation's artists while contrasting it with the supposed individuality of another nation's artists, and repeatedly assert that this difference is attributable to cultural emphasis or de-emphasis on individuality in art. That is what I object to, that is what I find to be bigoted and insulting, and that is what I have taken great pains to show is utterly without foundation.

Here's brevity for you: Just because you're not aware of the influences and diversity in Japanese art does not mean they do not exist.

And I'll end on a thought: A penguin can recognize another penguin on sight in a crowd of thousands upon thousands. It's not super penguin senses. Penguins don't think they all look alike, and neither do I.

Gordon McAlpin's picture

Just spare us, please.

Neil's statements absolutely DO NOT discount the diversity of styles and influences in Japanese comics. He was simply calling out their similiarities -- and there ARE similarities. This does not mean they are indiscernable from each other, as you seem to believe you have logically inferred from it: it simply means that there are distinct similarities. It's true of Japanese film as much as it is of comics: this isn't to say that Ozu and Kurosawa and Miyazaki are indiscernable from each other, only that they have some notable similarities (some of which arise from Japanese culture).

If anyone here is being pretentious, it's you. But what's worse is your willful and deliberate evasion of any semblance of an understanding of his article, which was perfectly clear to anyone who would just choose to understand it. Disagree with him if you like, but don't ignorantly accuse the man of being a bigot in the most back-handed and cowardly way possible. That's just f--king despicable.

Multiplex is a twice weekly humor comic about the staff of the Multiplex 10 Cinemas and the movies that play there.